Talk:Kármán line

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A fact from Kármán line appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 June 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the edge of space is about 100 kilometers above mean sea level?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/June.

Wikipedia

Water'n it down

It seems there's been a long-term effort to water down the relevance and established nature of the Karman line, which might be politically-aligned POV-pushing.

The lede used to say:

The Kármán line lies at an altitude of 100 km (approx. 62 miles) above the Earth's sea level, and is commonly used to define the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and outer space.[2] This definition is accepted by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), which is an international standard setting and record-keeping body for aeronautics and astronautics.

This turned into:

represents both the attempt to define a boundary between Earth's atmosphere and outer space, and offers a specific definition set by the Fédération aéronautique internationale (FAI), an international record-keeping body for aeronautics.

and later:

is an attempt to define a boundary between Earth's atmosphere and outer space, and offers a specific definition set by the Fédération aéronautique internationale (FAI), an international record-keeping body for aeronautics.

and currently:

is a proposed conventional boundary between Earth's atmosphere and outer space set by the international record-keeping body FAI (Fédération aéronautique internationale) at an altitude of 100 kilometres (54 nautical miles; 62 miles; 330,000 feet) above mean sea level. However, such definition of the edge of space is not universally adopted.

—ReadOnlyAccount (talk) 23:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The Kármán line is mainly used for legal and regulatory purposes"

The fuzziness of this has caused the Wikipedia editor collective considerable difficulties.

As I understand it, there actually is no one Karman line that everybody agrees to. What we're talking about is the idea of there being one. So it's more "The idea of a Kármán line is mainly used for legal and regulatory purposes" because surely laywers and regulators can't use what doesn't exist. CapnZapp (talk) 08:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I think the current wording overstates things here. The current article has:

While international law does not define the edge of space, or the limit of national airspace, most international organizations and regulatory agencies (including the United Nations) accept the FAI's Kármán line definition or something close to it. "The Kármán Line: Where does space begin?". 5 March 2021.

However, to the best of my knowledge the United Nations has never adopted the the Kármán Line (or any definition of the boundary of space). There has been much discussion about it in the United Nations Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, but it has never gone further than discussion. A source that supports this is: Li, Alex S. (2021). "Ruling Outer Space: Defining the Boundary and Determining Jurisdictional Authority?". Oklahoma Law Review. 73 (4). Retrieved 2024-12-03.

If the UN has adopted the Kármán Line in some manner a more specific citation is needed.

Likewise, the claim of "most international organizations and regulatory agencies" is also not well supported by the given citation. Perhaps it would be productive to create a new section to list countries and organizations that do use the Karman line. Pavon (talk) 16:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Haley's coinage

Did Haley's papers actually use "Kármán" or did he use "Karman" (accentless) ? We should be accurate in describing the original coinage and not use the modern version when talking about origination. -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 22:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been unable to find a copy of Haley's paper, but Gangale's paper quotes Haley's paper as saying "Kármán Line" with the accents. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 18:14, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Haley uses "Kármán" and not "Karman" - our quote is correct. You can check this for yourself by following this series of links:

Google "Haley, Andrew G. (1963). Space Law and Government". For me the third link is:
The Online Books Page Click "page images at HathiTrust"
HathiTrust Digital Library Click "full view"
Space law and government - Full View Navigate to what the system thinks is page 105-106 - this is where our quote can be found.

CapnZapp (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kármán Zone

Personally, I don’t think it is a line so much as a zone. Above 50 miles (80 kilometers) the air is too thin for traditional aircraft. Below 100 miles (160 kilometers) a vessel cannot travel fast enough to maintain orbit due to air resistance. This would “settle” the debate between the USA and the International Aeronautical Federation (IAF).

Calling it the Karman zone would also clarify what various aviators should be called. Below the Karman zone they’re pilots. Above it they’re astronauts. Within it they’re navigators. 2603:6011:3B00:6DB7:49D5:3E6D:D1C3:4D5E (talk) 02:36, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia, and your (or my) great ideas has no place in its articles. Please read up on original research, what it is, and why we avoid it here at Wikipedia. Now, if there existed reliable sources discussing a "Karman Zone" and its details, we could add it. But had there been any such articles, we very likely would have added it already. Regards CapnZapp (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]